Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

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Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby troopdiver » Fri May 05, 2017 4:15 pm

Hello

My 1990 2.8L V6 Trooper FAILED the AZ State Emissions Test two times.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
FIRST TEST ATTEMPT: RESULTS

FAIL - Hydrocarbons (HC) in PPM - Loaded HC=205/Idle HC=266

PASS - Carbon Monoxide (CO) in % - Loaded CO=0.84/Idle CO= 1.0
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I replaced all of the spark plugs, the PCV valve and checked for any disconnected vacuum hoses and leaks. I also pulled the distributor CAP and ROTOR and lightly cleaned off the corrosion build up using a very fine file. Also, previously, I had already replaced the Smog/Air pump and check valve a couple of weeks ago with new ones, because it was making a lot of noise and bad. I also replaced the air filter with a new one.

Could I have taken off too much material and changed or ruined the conductive characteristics/tolerances of the CAP and ROTOR during the filing process?

NOTE: On the way to the Second test the truck ran great, lots of power and smooth. About 2 miles from the emissions inspection location, the truck engine began to cut out like the engine firing was missing or running out of fuel. Currently, the fuel guage is not working, so I decide to get more fule before going the the Second test. The missing continued after getting more fuel.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
SECOND TEST ATTEMPT: RESULTS (next day)

FAIL - Hydrocarbons (HC) in PPM - Loaded HC=201/Idle HC=358

FAIL - Carbon Monoxide (CO) in % - Loaded CO=1.03/Idle CO= 4.2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

YIKES!!!

NOTE: In regards to the filing/cleaning I performed on the CAP and ROTOR before the second test, could this be why It failed the Carbon Monoxide (CO) in % part of the test the second time.

Maybe I should just purchase a new CAP and ROTOR.

NOTE: After the Second test, the cutting out and missing got worse on the way home.

Does anyone have any other inexpensive easy fixes/idease on how I can get my trooper to pass AZ State emissions inspection?

Some where else to start?

NOTE: Also, check engine light is on when I start the truck and goes off after it heats up, about 10 minutes or so.

PLEASE ADVISE, Thanks.
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby steve mortillaro » Fri May 05, 2017 5:17 pm

Is your check engine light working? See if it illuminates briefly when you start, or jump the ALDL pins.

Start with ignition off
1. pull change tray out
2. Locate large white molex connector (only has 3 pins out of many) and disconnect it
3. jump the 2 female pins closest to each other with a wire or paperclip etc
4. Turn ignition on, but don't start engine
5. look for flashing check engine light
it will flash once and then twice (code 12) three times in a row, letting you know you are in diagnostic mode. Then it will flash more times and then a pause, and then flash again. The first set of flashes is the first number of the code, and the next set of flashes is the second number of the code. (For example, it flashes 4 times then pauses and flashes 4 times again= code 44; 3 flashes, then a pause and then 6 flashes would be code 36, etc.) The code flashes will also go 3 in a row for each code. Then it will flash code 12 3 more times to let you know it is done. You can then look up what code is what by googling it or searching for it here. If it just flashes code 12 3 times and then code 12 3 times, there are no codes stored in memory. If it doesn't flash at all, the bulb is burnt out (when I got my 1990 trooper v6 11 years ago, the bulb was burnt out, just fyi)
6. turn off ignition
7. remove jumper and reconnect connectors

If all is good, I would suspect that fuel is not being fully ignited. Check that the spark is strong coming from the coil- the lighter the color (white being ideal but ain't gonna happen) the better. I was having problems with poor performance and sometimes the engine wouldn't start and I found that if I jiggled the primary wires of the distributer (not the plug wires) I could get it to start and it would run fine. The spark test would produce a reddish-orange (weak) spark. I suspected ignition control module. I went through a number of ignition control modules during this time, but the culprit was the module's ground wire inside of the distributer that was loose and not making a good contact. I only found this out after pulling a distributer from a 3.1 Rodeo from a local salvage yard and swapped it out. Since then, there have been no problems.

Also check your timing, though that usually goes out gradually as the timing chain wears, unless the distributer is loose.

Check coolant temp sensor it's right up front on the intake manifold behind the water outlet. It has a 2 wire connector. This can cause poor performance

Check O2 sensor or just change it if you haven't in a long time or never have

Knock sensor is also a suspect

(These sensors should cause the computer to register the malfunction as a code)

I'm sure there are other ideas that someone can expound upon.
Good luck
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1990 Trooper v6- Best vehicle I ever owned
1987 Toyota 4x4 pickup- Farm truck
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby troopdiver » Fri May 05, 2017 5:24 pm

Wow, what a great response!
I had no idea this was possible on this truck.
I will try this tonight or over the weekend.
Thanks!

Also...
And YES, the check engine light is working.
It comes on when I start the truck and stays on until it gets warmed up (about 10 minutes or so), then turns off.

Also, I forgot to mention before, there is a repetitive puff sound on the drivers side around the exhaust manifold towards the back of the engine when you first start the engine.
I'm not sure, but I think it may be an exhaust leak.
It may also be related to the check engine light being on for a while.
Once the engine heats up, the noise gradually goes away (hot metal expanding) and the check engine light goes off.
May be coincidental.
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby dave » Fri May 05, 2017 8:06 pm

How old are your spark plug wires,,, they can easily be damaged when changing spark plugs or rotor.
Spark plug wires should be secure,, not flop around, and have fragile inner conductor broken.

After you solve the miss problem,,,, be sure engine and exhaust are warmed-up really well before test,,,
I usually go for test after getting off highway (60mph). good luck :)
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby steve mortillaro » Sat May 06, 2017 8:04 am

Your CEL shouldn't be illuminated more than 1 or 2 seconds when you start the engine. If it is on longer, then I suspect there may be codes stored in the ECM. I suspect 2 things. If you have a massive enough exhaust leak, it may throw code 44, (lean exhaust on O2 circuit) and then the ECM overcompensates by making the mixture richer. The other thing I suspect is that the coolant temp sensor is reading a low temp (code 15) and enriching the mixture. But it could be a number of things.
here's a list of GM OBD codes https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes ... -codes.php
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby troopdiver » Mon May 08, 2017 5:17 pm

Dave, thanks for the info...
I have wondered about this possibility. I do have one spark plug wire that is suspect. It is not symmetrical to the plug center axis as it leaves the plug. It does appears to flop down when I let go of it. hmm, Maybe it is broken.
The plug wires appear dirty and smudged but not in too bad shape.
Maybe I should just replace them all.
Thanks, I will keep this in mind as I go through the process.
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby troopdiver » Mon May 08, 2017 5:53 pm

91 test leads 1.jpg
91 test leads 1.jpg
Steve

I have still not been able to get to check the codes as you suggested before.
I did find what I think are the test leads for this truck. I was unable to find a white connector that had three wires coming out of it per your instructions.
But there was a black connector with three wires coming out of it. There was also another black flat connector that had only three leads and the ports were designated as A,B,C,D,E,F...?

Anyways, I'm a little unsure at this point, but I think the two leads I found in my truck, match the two leads shown in the pic below (per a different post) The post said I should connect the two together and then begin the test.
Please let me know if this is not correct or if you disagree with this.

Also, I live in an apartment that does not allow working on or washing of the vehicles on the premises, so, WE, all of the "shade tree mechanics" that live here find ourselves running around after hours in the dark and in the middle of the night like "Ninja Mechanics" to get the job done, ha!

Anyways, please let me know what you think about the information I found in the other post. Here is the URL below.

http://www.isoterra.com/isuzu/isuzu_tro ... e_101.html

Again, Thanks for all of your help!
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby Ed Mc. » Mon May 08, 2017 6:29 pm

Those look like the wires for the "check engine" light. They would normally be disconnected. If you connect them and turn the key on, the "check engine" light should start flashing. Then read the codes as previously posted. The connector you found is probably the ALDL plug and this is the other way to enable diagnostic mode, same as plugging those 2 wires together.

There's another wire in there for the Electronic Spark Control Circuit) (ESC) that should be connected at all times except when you're checking the timing. You must disconnect this wire from itself in order to read the timing scale on the engine.

So that's something to check, too. You may have to dig around in the console to find all the appropriate wiring. Sometimes it's hidden under the removeable bottom in the main section of the console. This is where the ECM is mounted as well.

I've attached a few wiring diagrams of the ECM, and ESC circuit. Note the "set timing connector" wire going to pin D5 of the ECM, this is the one to disconnect to disable the ESC circuit.

You may have seen the recent thread on a similar smog problem with a 2.8 V6, the final solution was a new cat. Not saying with certainty that's your issue, but if you get everything else squared-away and you still can't pass smog, likely the cat is shot.

The OE cat's were very restrictive, anyway, and an inexpensive generic freer-flowing cat off eBay, along with a Dynomax Hemi Turbo muffler would add some welcome performance to the rig. Just a thought.

HTH.........ed
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby steve mortillaro » Mon May 08, 2017 6:55 pm

I said to disconnect the molex connector, but it should already be disconnected, as this is the diagnostic port.
Jump the pins like I did in this picture
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby troopdiver » Tue May 09, 2017 6:37 pm

Steve
Yes, I did find this black connector and as you said, it was there already disconnected.
This is the black connector I found that has the alpha port designations along the top of the connector.
I guess this black connector is simply one of the two ways to start the CEL test.
Thanks again!
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby troopdiver » Tue May 09, 2017 6:49 pm

Ed
Thanks for all of the info.

To be clear, I guess at this point I can either connect the two disconnected white wires (shown in my post PIC above) together to start the CEL test or insert a jumper into the black connector (shown in Steve's post PIC above) to start the CEL test.

I think I did find the ESC wires, they are black with colored stripes on them and they were already connected like you said.

Good info about the CAT and muffler, always looking for more power, ha!

Also, thanks for the diagrams, always a plus.

Thanks!
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby troopdiver » Tue May 09, 2017 6:55 pm

Ed
I do need to check the timing. How would I use the Electronic Spark Control Circuit to check the timing.
The only way I ever checked the timing on any vehicle many years ago was with a timing light.
Ha! It's been a while.
Is there a newer/better/easier way to check the timing using the ESC?
In a nut shell, please advise, thanks!
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby Ed Mc. » Tue May 09, 2017 10:41 pm

troopdiver wrote:Ed
I do need to check the timing. How would I use the Electronic Spark Control Circuit to check the timing.
The only way I ever checked the timing on any vehicle many years ago was with a timing light.
Ha! It's been a while.
Is there a newer/better/easier way to check the timing using the ESC?
In a nut shell, please advise, thanks!


Hi, it's very simple to do, just unplug the ESC wire connector (i.e., "set timing connector"), which disables the spark control function.

Check timing with a timing light and adjust distributor as needed. Reconnect the ESC wire to itself when you're done.

Note that while the ESC wire is unplugged, the "check engine" light will be lit and a fault code will be set. The light will go off after you reconnect the wire, and the trouble code will clear from the ECM after a number of start/stop cycles.

HTH.........ed
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby troopdiver » Thu May 11, 2017 1:29 am

Ed, hello again.

I have a question. I have seen a few posts, some of them yours that say setting the timing for my engine to 14 degrees (Factory was set to 10 degrees).

I have seen other posts that say that setting the timing to 12 degrees is even better.

I read something somewhere that said one could set the timing real low to get past the emissions test and then after the test, set the timing back up (I'm guessing to increase performance to normal).

I even saw a post that said one should start at the factory setting and then add 1 degree for every 2500 feet of altitude from sea level. Huh, really?

I would like to keep things on the up and up, but I really need to get this truck to pass this test.

I really wonder what you think the normal timing degree setting should be for my truck.

Maybe even an alternate temporary setting to get my truck to pass the emissions test.

Please let me know what you think, again, thanks!

P.S. Man that distributor lock down bolt is hard to get a wrench and or a socket on, wheeeuuu!
Ed you have been a great help to me with my truck and you are "the man", when it comes to Troopers, just like everyone comments.
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby Ed Mc. » Thu May 11, 2017 2:56 am

Howdy, on a rig with a lot of performance mods, 14 might be OK. My 3.4 used to ping slightly on that setting, with ethanol fuel, but since I started using non-ethanol gas from a Cenex station up the road from me, I don't recall hearing any pinging.

Your unmodified 2.8 would probably run just a wee bit better set at 12 deg BTDC but more than likely you won't notice much difference. If the smog techs check the timing setting, you'd probably best leave it at 10. At least until you pass the test, then you can run it however you like until next year!

Gotta agree with ya on the dist holddown bolt, it's a bugger to get at. Mine has either a 9/16" or 15mm bolt head, I can't recall. I was able to get in there with my combination wrench and a lot of contortions to get the bolt loose one-flat-at-a-time.

HTH & thanks for the kind words.....ed
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby troopdiver » Fri May 12, 2017 6:04 am

Ed

ha! one flat at a time, flipping the wrench back and forth, bin der, dun dat!

I just discovered one other thing this evening as I was out working on the truck. I decided to adjust the distributor manually this evening, because the truck was cutting out and loosing power after warming up. I plan on formally timing it with a timing light tomorrow.

So I get the distributor adjusted just where I want it and lock it down (truck starts up really fast now and idles at +-7500 rpms, running great!). I hook up all of the VAC hoses and air cleaner. I get in the truck to start it up and engine turns, but does not start. WOW! WHAT! You gotta be kidding, REALLY! The truck had just been running, turned off and re-started several times with no problems??? I sat there for a moment thinking and remember a post I read earlier in the week (might have been one of yours Ed). The post said that their truck would not start sometimes and they found out if they wiggled the wires coming out of the base of the distributor, the truck would then start. So I got out and wiggled the wires while a friend of mine started the truck and it started after a few wiggles. I let the truck run for a couple of minutes and then as a test, wiggled them again to see if I got any response and the truck died and shut off immediately. Tried to start the truck again and had to wiggle the wires again to get it to start.
In the hopes that I do not have to buy another distributor, I guess the next step is to address any loose wire connections inside of the distributor. Not knowing which wire is the problem, I will try to check and re-condition/clean all of the connection points. The plastic holding the wires seems a little flimsy and loose and the wires appear to be loose in their assigned positions. Well, I will give this a try and see what happens.
It seems like this exercise/leaning experience will never end, ha! One thing after another.
Let me know what you think, thanks.
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby Ed Mc. » Fri May 12, 2017 6:10 am

That's an odd one!

If it's not dirty connections then maybe a broken wire at the plug.
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby geoffinbc » Sat May 13, 2017 4:18 am

Its the connections to the module. There is a bunch. Remove and clean as best you can and apply some electric terminal paste. It is silver like antiseize but designed specifically to conduct electricity. Do not use dielectric grease. An electrical supplier should be able to supply ypu some. We get our through our welding supplier so you might have one in your area. Tweco and Loctite both market the stuff.
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby troopdiver » Sun May 14, 2017 3:55 am

Well, I decided to pull the distributor so I could give it a good inspection/cleaning/service.

As I mentioned before the main harness going into the distributor was very loose. As I began my inspection, I noticed that there were three plastic connectors that plugged into the distributor along with what appeared to be a grounding wire that bolted into the bottom of the casting. There was a black plastic three wire connector and a black plastic two wire connector. There was also an orange plastic two wire connector plugged into the inside of the distributor that fed the center of the distributor, like a jumper.

The black plastic two wire connector was hanging of the leads very loose. As I grabbed it, the connector fell right off the leads. I think it was barely touching the leads. I'm guessing as the engine vibrated, the plug may have been shaking off and away from the two leads and making the engine cut out and or die. When I wiggled the wires from the outside of the distributor, it may have been enough to make or not make contact. I was able to plug in the black two wire connector back into the distributor. The black plastic two wire connector is now plugged in nice and tight.

As for the black plastic two wire connector being very loose inside the distributor, it may have been from the wires pulling on the already very loose white plastic harness connector that mounts to the side of the distributor. I had already done a lot of work to the engine around distributor area and also replaced the distributor O ring three weeks before, but the already very loose white plastic connector was already in bad shape, so who knows. Maybe all of the activity in and around the distributor finally pulled the wires loose inside the distributor because you could tug the wires from the outside of the distributor and they would move back and forth though the white plastic harness connector on the side of the distributor, which in turn moved the wires inside the distributor, possibly pulling and tugging of the black plastic two wire connector off it's leads, possible.

The loose white plastic harness going into the side of the distributor was cracked and in very bad shape. I carefully serviced the loose harness by incasing the wires inside of the actual the harness in a solid block of RTV. I also left a tiny weep hole in the solid block of RTV that now lives inside of white plastic connector, because the wires simply just lay in white plastic connectors pathways and were not sealed off. The white plastic connector is now firmed up and fits snuggly into the gap allowed for it in the side of the distributor. The wires inside of the white plastic harness are firm in place and no longer move back and forth inside of the connector, so any tugging on the wires from outside of the white harness connector on the side of the distributor do not affect the wires and connectors inside of the distributor any longer. SOLID STATE, ha!

Also, I found a bunch of broken orange plastic pieces scattered all over from one end of the orange two wire connector laying in the bottom of the distributor housing. The orange plastic connector was not in good condition at all, however the two wires and wire connectors inside of the orange plastic connector were in great shape and making good tight connections to their corresponding leads. I guess orange plastic does not bake well, ha! I decided to remove the two wire connectors out of the plastic orange connector and discard the orange plastic connector. I plugged the two orange wire connectors directly into their appropriate leads on the distributor and then locked them into place using heat shrink. The two orange plastic connector leads are nice and tight now.

I use to be an electrical apprentice for a couple of years. Great Experience! I did not think about using electrical terminal past at the time, but it sounds like a great idea, maybe next time.

Anyways, going to install the distributor back into the truck in a couple of days and set the timing to 12 degrees as you suggested.
The way the AZ emissions test works here is you pay $12.50 for the test, if you pass you can go get a sticker. If you fail, you have a second chance for free within 60 days of the first initial test. If it does not pass the first time, I will set the timing down to 10 to see if it makes a difference. This will be my second $12.50, I hope there is not a third $12.50, ha!

Anyways, I hope to get the truck finished up and back to AZ emissions test facility early this next week.

We shall see what happens. I will keep my fingers crossed and continue to keep you posted.

Again, thanks!

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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby geoffinbc » Sun May 14, 2017 10:47 am

You can buy a rebuilt distributor or get that harness from any TBI truck at the junkyard. The body of the distributor is unique to the 60 degree engine family but the guts are the same across all GM TBI engines. Even if you don't replace the connectors now it might be good to have spares.
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby troopdiver » Sun May 14, 2017 4:33 pm

Ed
I'm wondering if you can clear something up for me. When I finally get around to setting the timing on this truck, I understand about disconnecting the ESC, but do I need to worry about plugging any rubber vacuum hoses (as mentioned in other timing instructions)? I plan on loosening the distributor's lock down bolt just enough to be able to turn it. I plan on restoring everything back to normal like rubber vacuum hoses to the air cleaner et al, air filter and then air filter lid. I guess at that point there should not be any open rubber hoses to worry about, right?
Please advise, thanks!
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby troopdiver » Sun May 14, 2017 4:47 pm

Ed
Oh and about you using the Craftsman 15 MM combo wrench on that pesky 15 MM distributor bolt.

Do you access the bolt horizontally from the left, under the coil support frame or from behind it.

Or from some other abstract obtuse contorted angle or all of the above, ha!

Trade secret? ha!

I think I see a small pathway from both angles.

We use to have a saying back in Texas..."You gotta hold your mouth right to get it done", ha!

Just curious.

Thanks again!
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby Ed Mc. » Sun May 14, 2017 6:36 pm

There are no vacuum hoses to the distributor, it's all electronic controls for that (hence the ESC, Electronic Spark Control).

On the adjustment, what I recall doing is standing in front the engine compt and reaching around from underneath the pssgr-side corner of the engine, using the boxed end of the combination wrench.

I also recall that I didn't remount the metal heater pipe assembly to the upper bell housing bolts when I installed the 3.4. If yours has never been touched, that heater pipe assy will still be mounted and it may or may not interfere with reaching around to get at the hold-down bolt.

I recall other posters saying that they went in from above with a combination of socket, extension, and u-joint. Tape 'em all together if you go that route, that way they don't fall off into the bowels of the engine compt! :shock: :evil:
'90 3.4 Troop LS;
'89 Troop RS (Exhaust Valve Challenged), now gone to a Good Home!
Yes, I am a Trooper-Holic!!!
Keep On Troopin' !
Ed Mc.
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby troopdiver » Thu May 18, 2017 10:15 pm

AZ emissions test finally PASSED!

One part of the test was just 2 points under the limit but it passed, ha!

Thanks to everyone involved!

CONCLUSION:

NEW SPARK PLUGS, NEW INTAKE MANIFOLD GASKETS, NEW VALVE COVER GASKETS, NEW VALVE

COVER GROMMET, NEW OIL CHANGE AND OIL FILTER, NEW RADIATOR CAP (was leaking), PCV

VALVE, NEW AIR PUMP, NEW AIR PUMP CHECK VALVE, NEW AIR FILTER, NEW DISTRIBUTOR O

RING, NEW DISTRIBUTOR ROTOR, NEW DISTRIBUTOR CAP, TESTED EGR VALVE-OK,

CHECKED/REPLACED AND CONNECTED ALL VACCUM HOSES, CHECKED ALL SPARK PLUG WIRES,

CHECKED AND REBUILT INTERNAL DISTRIBUTOR CONNECTIONS/SIDE HARNESS CONNECTOR, RAN

SECONDARY GROUND WIRE FOR COIL, SET DISTRIBUTOR TIMING, CARB CLEANER AND ADDED

FUEL/INJECTOR TREATMENT ADDITIVE.

I attached a few photos showing some of the parts I encountered along the way and the combination of tools I used to get the distributor bolt out and then in again. I was able to find a 1/4", 15MM socket at the local auto parts store, Enjoy!
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troopdiver
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Re: Failed AZ State Emissions Test-1990 Trooper 2.8L V6

Postby Ed Mc. » Thu May 18, 2017 10:29 pm

Congrats on your perseverance, now you can enjoy driving your rig! Nice work on the electrical grooming, I bet that distributor wiring was causing a lot of the problem.
'90 3.4 Troop LS;
'89 Troop RS (Exhaust Valve Challenged), now gone to a Good Home!
Yes, I am a Trooper-Holic!!!
Keep On Troopin' !
Ed Mc.
Almost Joe Isuzu
 
Posts: 2739
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 1:26 am
Location: Poulsbo, WA
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