To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

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To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby bradzuzu » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:04 pm

I have been tossing around this idea for quite a while now.. A friend of mine upgraded his dodge cummins turbo so I got his old one..
Test fit-

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I think a custom built manifold would help give me room for my piping.. And support the weight..!!
Let's hear some input.... I've been told that a turbo only needs a trickle of oil for supply.. On my vw I had an 1/8" supply line feeding it thinking pressure feed/supply was nessisary... In turn it pulled down the oil pressure a little bit.. I don't have an inter cooler yet, and was debating on a direct feed for starters... For oil return I would find a galley plug or put one into the oil pan... Supply is an easy T off of the filter body...

Thanks in advance Brad
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby Med!c » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:38 pm

i think you should do it!!! :D

would running it off 1 single bank be enough? Would that cause any issues with 1 side having more power than the other?

What about drilling a hole at the top of the valve covers and having that be your return line?
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby clipper 03 rodeo » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:00 pm

Med!c wrote:i think you should do it!!! :D

would running it off 1 single bank be enough? Would that cause any issues with 1 side having more power than the other?

What about drilling a hole at the top of the valve covers and having that be your return line?


It wouldnt be ran off of just the 3 cylinders on that side, what you do when doing a single turbo v6 or v8 (in the engine bay) is make a U shaped pipe and connect both manifolds together (so you have no exhaust exit), then bolt the turbo on one of the manifolds, and run a single downpipe from that and run it out the back for your exhaust. Here is a quick drawing I did on paint so it's easier for people to understand. Please excuse my mad paint skills.

Image


As for the return, it probably wouldnt be that good of an idea by looking at the pics since he may not have enough room to get the line to the valve cover without making it a PITA to install and/or remove. Tapping the oil pan is usually the best way to go.
Last edited by clipper 03 rodeo on Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby kbr12080 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:08 pm

it dont sound like a bad idea, maybe get some extra exhaust manifolds to cut & weld on, so if it dont work you can put it back the way it was....i always love the Frankenstein ideas!
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby bradzuzu » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:14 pm

Thanks guys !! I'm trying to think of the best way to conect the other side in ,and how I'm going to run the o2 sensors... One big highflow cat with two in front and two behind is one idea.. I have to contend with the solid axle moving around to.
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby Hatfield » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:23 pm

Turbo probably isn't the best for rock crawling since you have to rev the engine up to spool it and make power. How many mm is that turbo? Looks quite large, might be a bit laggy.

Going to be fun making that exhaust manifold, especially if you want equal lengths.
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby Rhodes » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:28 pm

Don't those crazy 3.2's have enough troubles without tossing forced induction into the mix? ;)
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby Ian1006 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:04 am

Id pass on the turbo...think the superchargers are the way to go. Also what are the specs on that thing?
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby kbr12080 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:24 am

Rhodes wrote:Don't those crazy 3.2's have enough troubles without tossing forced induction into the mix? ;)

yes. yes they do.
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby bradzuzu » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:43 am

Well for starters good points everyone ... Yes the turbos good size... It's roughly a t 4 hybrid with a good sized compressor ..
I can vouch that my 2 Lt. vw ran one almost the same size .. I think the 3.2 will push enough volume.. It'll be an experiment.. Your right though Hatfield I won't be able to have the same length exhaust runners, but with turbos it's more volume based... My manx buggy was equally mounted .. I'm trying to figure out the best way to feed and merge the two banks..
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby chasespeed » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:29 am

Brad... as far as equal length, looking into mounting that on top, with the hot pipes coming out of the manifolds, and merging up top. Another would be to connect the pipe, at the rear of one manifold. You could figure the length of pipe needed to compensate for the shorter runners.

Put your upstream o2s in the downpipe, and your downstream just past a common cat.

I also wouldn't bother with a charge cooler for a while.

How are you going to handle additional air?

How much of that hx35 do you plan to feed the 3.2?

I went back and forth w/ Jerry on this about 5 or 6 years ago...

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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby Metal88 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:07 am

In my opinion I think that turbo might be a little too big for that engine. you gota think diesels pull in more air than gas engines.
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby Rhodes » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:36 am

Too big isn't really a problem, but it'll have more lag at the beginning of acceleration. The bigger the turbo, the more time it takes to spin up.
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby bradzuzu » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:13 pm

Image

This is the flange/exhaust feed size of this turbo.. Not as big as you think... One thing I noticed with my buggy turbo setup, I had a T 3 on it from a 2 ltr Saab ... It was great for torque and bottom to mid power, but I could tell it was giving a little to much back pressure above 5 - 5500... I tested out a 6 cyl diesel turbo on it (T4 configuration) and it ran really good with that one to.. This turbo has an internal waste gate built in, meening lots of adjustability for pressure/boost...
I figure the Driverside will go under the engine and up to plug into the pas side.. Kind of like clippers Drawing , in retrospect ... I want a good strong pedestal mount to support the turbo is the big thing, I don't want cracked pipes and leaks to deal with...
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby chasespeed » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:02 pm

I dont think Clippers quick illustration is intended to show "under" the engine. I think in this case, looking in at a manifold from a Pontiac 301 Turbo, or a 307 buick might yield what I was referring to.

Okay, there are a few things that need to be kept in mind....

This engine was not designed as a turbo, its not cammed as a turbo. So... "lag" in the term as it is used, is non-existent. Will there be a delay between GO, and light off? Of course... BUT, the engine will NOT be down any power, and it will operate as designed/intended, UNTIL the turbo lights. A turbo engine will typically have lower compression, and different LSA, and valve overlap, thus, de-rating the engine while not under boost. This reduces the strain on the internals while the heat comes on, and the engine increases its VE/HP.

This engine will not get that far with the factory fuel injection/ignition timing. The factory 3.2 is somewhere around 9.0/9.2:1 C/R, IIRC(shooting from memory). It WILL NOT be happy by having too much air crammed down its throat. You WILL get detonation. Then the knock sensor will have something to do. You can get around this to a point, by running a higher octane fuel...BUT...

You need to add fuel, and take away timing as boost comes in.... which means dyno time.

IIRC Jerry suggested using the 3.5 pistons, as they have a lower compression height, and should lower the C/R, which, would make your goals much more.... fun.... still cant get around the cam timing though...

I believe I was going to run my hot piping around the FRONT of the engine. I just flat out dont remember, I will have to go through all my stuff, and see if I can find the skethes/ outlines etc... if I can find the emails between me and Jerry, I will forward them to you... a LOT of information... that man is a walking encyclopedia with these....

As far as sizing, the HX35 is good for about 575 CFM in its effecient map...a comfy 330ish hp, its a 56mm turbo.... so, I would say its actually about an ideal turbo... the turbine side on the other hand, try to get a few different housings... find a 9cm, 12cm, and a 14cm, and go from there... I recommend a drive pressure gauge as well, at least initially... this is an aluminum engine.... it will NOT thank you for high drive pressures, and detonation...

SO... the blower kits are based on the Eaton M90 right? SO... approx 90 ci postive displacement(IIRC)... I think you will be able to move MORE air with the HX35.

I am NOT trying to discourage you.... quite the contrary... I had the same idea 6 years ago for my 2wd rodeo... I wanna see this happen...

If my compression numbers are WRONG, PLEASE, correct them, and I will correct them here... I am honestly trying to remember a series emails 5-6 years ago....

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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby bradzuzu » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:45 pm

Thanks Chase its nice to hear from someone else that has had some thoughts towards this to... I'm not going for maximum power on this setup but I will however have the ability to.. Crash is a buddy of mine and we talk a lot, working back and forth on his build, his ideas and my build ideas as well... I ran my buggy between 3-5 pounds of boost.. The bigger turbo would hit 8 lbs ... I heard tell the vw engines where taking 20 some psi, crazy boost and power increase... I believe the stock map sensor is a 2 or 3 bar... So it's capable of reading positive... My amigo is a 2000 and is minus the knock sensor to... Colder plugs help out a bunch... I'm excited to start in in this for sure !! I also didn't run an inter cooler on my vw, I tested one but didn't like the setup and didn't really see any results... I was also running a custom csi that I taylerd to work on it... I need to check and make sure that I can get a tuner programmer for my rig to... That would help out a bunch..
Comparing the 3.2 and 3.5 pistons, it would be around a 1/4 " lower deck height wouldn't it ?? That would change the quench area drastically I would think and tend to burn the piston... 3.5 cams might be the meal ticket as well, more duration... Some say a stock cam is better with a turbo... Unless you do have a turbo cam ground, that makes a vast improvement.. This is if your running a big performance cam, it just doesn't work good.. people super charge stock engines all the time... The way the apparatus is drivin (exhaust/belt) does make a difference to.. A blower like different exhaust timing to exit the combustion chambers, versus a turbo is exhaust driven and like to have the intake side open sooner to cram afm in... The numbers you gave look good , and make perfect sense...once I get it mounted and start testing the actual dynamics of how it's going to work , it's always a slight guessing game... Test and tune man !!
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby bradzuzu » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:44 pm

Image

Image

Image

Image

I came to the conclusion that it's not going to mount itself ,so I'm getting the ball Rollin !!
I have an idea of how I'm going to design the manifold chamber...I want it smooth for input from the drivers side with a directional pattern up and out to the turbo... Time for plasma cutting :)
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby DAMUDKING » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:41 pm

have you thought about a reserve mount turbo system and just using your stock manifolds/down pipes? the hx35 turbo should work pretty good for your app. the dsm guys are running them on 2liters and making full boost by 3500 so your 3.2 will be there alot sooner. it would be awesome to have this setup with a auto trans (if you could make one hold up :) )
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby bradzuzu » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:29 pm

An auto would be cool !! I guess I'll research this other turbo and see how much smaller it is... This one was free :)... I just want to make sure I don't make to much back pressure on the exhaust side... Once it's setup it would be easy to change out turbos to... I still have my other one, but I think it needs rebuilt...my 2 lit aircooled vw ran it no problem so it might be a good alternative... I think it's a T 3 ... Just with 3-5 lbs of boost my Manx buggy was a kick..!!
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby chasespeed » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:40 pm

The auto is 9cm3... the typical housing is 12cm3, and, there was the odd 14cm3 housing....
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby bradzuzu » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:17 am

chasespeed wrote:The auto is 9cm3... the typical housing is 12cm3, and, there was the odd 14cm3 housing....


Can you put that in lamen terms :) I don't understand what it is your comparing.. Is that 3 different styles of the T3 series ??
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby chasespeed » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:51 pm

Sorry. Those are turbine housing measurements. The "auto" turbo has a tighter housing, meaning faster response, etc.

If you find you are lighting that turbo too soon, you could hunt down a 14cm3 housing.... that will minimize restriction while cruising etc, and light the turbo a little later in the rpm band....

Those numbers... 9cm3... 9 cubic cm... so... in the numbers 62/65/14. 62mm compressor wheel, 65mm turbine wheel, 14cm housing....

Clear as mud?
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby bradzuzu » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:06 pm

Yes lol thank you... I keep staring at the uncut flang :? Been to dang busy... Hopefully tomorrow I can get somewhere ...
Can anyone tell me if a heavy steel manifold would hold to much heat ??? I'm thinking of building formed to flow box type manifold with a runner up to feed the turbo and a runner down to pipe in the other bank ... Stock manifolds a cast iron and thick... I don't think it will hurt but better to ask... I will probly mount a pedestal with a flang to hook the egr tube in and keep it factory... If I build a runner style it will be more prone to crack I think... The other reason for building a new manifold is to open up a hole for the down pipe... I did however look and it would be possible to mount it between the engine and rad if I removed the fan and shroud.. But I think that's a bad location for an offroad application ...
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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby gear60 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:41 am

Hi,
Wow! Holset is the nice Turbo, I was very fun reading since the 1st you posted.
Your 3.2l gas engine was enough on road without turbo....55555, but........Holset :shock:

Anyway, it is not enough for the Turbo hard core as you right.

PS.
My izu is 2500Di diesel motor with turbo CT26-7M GTE Toyota and now I am setting Schwitzer S2B

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Re: To turbo or not to turbo my 3.2 ??

Postby psguardian » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:49 pm

OK I have skimmed the thread (had to come see the turbo). If this had already been said forgive/ignore me.

I remember an episode of Gearz where Stacy Mounted DUAL turbos in the rear end in place of the mufflers. Ran air ducting down the kicker panels, electric oil pumps at both ends of the feed system (push &pull pumps).

Why try to shove it in the engine compartment that's already cramped, just put it where the the Y comes together or even where your muffler/resonator are. Get a larger MAF, adjustable upstream o2 sensors to properly fool the ECU without buying spendy fuel management system.

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