T case hybrid build- 92 auto gears into mua5- Done !!!

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Re: T case hybrid build- looking for mid 90's auto t case ge

Postby bradzuzu » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:32 pm

Next week I will tackle the final tear down and regear job !!!
Not something I want to start late in the day. It should only take roughly 4-6 hours start to finish.
I'm debating on changing out the lock out piece on the 4wd shift rail to make it full manual control. I thought about leaving the sincros on the front output shaft, with the sincro hub locking dogs to aid in holding the colar into the drive gear. I'm worried the sincro's might jam up or chatter against the gear when running in 2wd. Another bonnas in eliminating the dogs and sincros is that the shaft can go in last, by putting on the shift fork and hub and then slipping the whole shaft assembly through and into the case bearing. I'm worried about getting the main gear hub off the main output shaft in one piece. The one clam puller will only fit once the the center shaft is out, and it's locked in via the main shaft. Just a puzzle is all !!
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Re: T case hybrid build- looking for mid 90's auto t case ge

Postby psguardian » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:48 pm

That sounds fun.

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Re: T case hybrid build- looking for mid 90's auto t case ge

Postby bradzuzu » Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:56 am

You know you could always come help If ya want :)..... You cold be there for my pain lol !!!
91 amigo sas toy front leaf- traded off :(
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custom built buggy ffor the dirty stuff

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Re: T case hybrid build- looking for mid 90's auto t case ge

Postby trooper T/diesel » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:53 am

found some photos i thought id share.... 8)
i know it says MSG-5F but its a MUA
msg5f_p2.jpg

msg5f_p1.jpg



this is the real MSG trans used in the 86\87 4x4 models
remove item 75, 65 and 36 and you have the 4sp model :P
msg5etk_p2.jpg

msg5etk_p1.jpg
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Re: T case hybrid build- looking for mid 90's auto t case ge

Postby psguardian » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:22 am

Tell ya what, you teach me to weld, on your scrap, & I'll lend ya a hand on the tcase lol.

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Re: T case hybrid build- looking for mid 90's auto t case ge

Postby bradzuzu » Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:52 pm

Lol that could be arranged ... When you get your trooper going you can do some bumpers !!!
91 amigo sas toy front leaf- traded off :(
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Re: T case hybrid build- looking for mid 90's auto t case ge

Postby bradzuzu » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:27 pm

By the way Trooper T cool schematics !!! Thanks :) next I would like to change gear ratios in the trany if it's possible...
91 amigo sas toy front leaf- traded off :(
2000 amigo sas d44 wagonear 4 link
custom built buggy ffor the dirty stuff

My build up page
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Intake R&R - port and polish

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Re: T case hybrid build- looking for mid 90's auto t case ge

Postby trooper T/diesel » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:31 pm

im not aware of any different gearing for a MUA main box, but i know there's an upgrade for the O\D in a MSG.
it makes it about the same as the MUAs O\D.
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Re: T case hybrid build- looking for mid 90's auto t case ge

Postby bradzuzu » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:48 pm

I think your right !!! It would be cool I'll have to do some research on it. I will probly be tapped out for a while on gears :) when I'm finished with my t case...
91 amigo sas toy front leaf- traded off :(
2000 amigo sas d44 wagonear 4 link
custom built buggy ffor the dirty stuff

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Re: T case hybrid build- looking for mid 90's auto t case ge

Postby bradzuzu » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:39 am

Image

Well I got all the gears swapped out today !!

Image

The specialty tools of choice lol. A cut off Alen wrench inserted into a nut driver works perfect for driving out the role pins. This was much more of an ordeal in the amigo for sure.

Image

I tried a different way of disassembly this time and it worked out somewhat more efficient.

Image

Image

Image

So like before I pulled the front output flange and popped the shaft back leaving the bearing in the case.

Image

This was the hardest part (pulling the gear hub).. I was able to get a bit of a pull and remove the center shaft, allowing me to pull the sincro hub and get a safer location to pull it the rest of the way off.

Image

All the way pulled down.... Ya !!!!!
91 amigo sas toy front leaf- traded off :(
2000 amigo sas d44 wagonear 4 link
custom built buggy ffor the dirty stuff

My build up page
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Intake R&R - port and polish

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Re: T case hybrid build- looking for mid 90's auto t case ge

Postby psguardian » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:51 am

NICE!

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Re: T case hybrid build- looking for mid 90's auto t case ge

Postby bradzuzu » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:44 am

Image

Image

My war zone of tools and parts, I need a taller jack !!!

Image

This was the beginning of what was to become a big PITA !!!
The tail shaft gear offset for starters. That's a hard one to calculate once the case is together.

Image

The thin shim came out of my t case, goes behind the stack of gears. The offset continued with the inner main shaft low gear to. The autos have that thick one....

Image

With the new center shaft in I started adjusting gear mesh depth.

Image

Image

With the aid of my super cut off Alen wrench (doubles as a quik pin lock and assembly tool) I checked gear mesh with low drive. Best quik reference, this is where it got evil and pain staking !!!!

Image

Everything has to be put on the main shaft for a final fit !!! I went ahead and installed everything to check all gear mesh. Everything looked perfect, until I shifted into high four/ 2wd... From installing the thick thrust washer everything got pushed back. The sincro hub DID NOT move far enough back to even begin to lock into high...SIGH !!!

Image

Note the travel/mesh on the hub !!!

Image

At this point I knew I needed to pull everything back off and reset the gear depth...
Also I needed to pull the shift rails and see what the detent difference was.
I apologize for lack of pics at this point. If I wanted to drive my amigo home I had to just work.
The hi/low shift rail was way off on the detent travel positions...
I swapped out the 92 's shift rail... Shifting to hi/2wd is about in the same location.
The low range is about another 1/2" further in travel !!! I still shimed behind the output shaft gear probly an additional 30-40 thou shim.

It was time for final assembly again. I knew for sure high would lock into the output shaft, low looked good except for the shifter travel, possibly a problem of binding against the rubber boot.
Filled it with oil and finished putting in the driveline and servo on the back cover, no time to put in the front drive line.

Low works but like I thought gets pushed/popped out !!!
Hi is perfect.... Thank God !!!! Drove it home without any issues !!!
91 amigo sas toy front leaf- traded off :(
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custom built buggy ffor the dirty stuff

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Intake R&R - port and polish

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Re: T case hybrid build- looking for mid 90's auto t case ge

Postby Bansil » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:01 am

Just a few notes I've noticed in the past working on these tcases.

I had a low range bearing lockup in lowrider, which essentially locks the tcase in hi and lo range at same..result tcase locks up.

I pulled tranny and took apart tcase (90 model) and found the lo gear bearing had spun which tore up the gear, no problem I had a spare MUA5 and tcase(91 model), took it apart and found the low gear had a different tooth count and diameter compared to what I had.

I called Jerry and he shipped me a low gear and new needle bearing.....it was wrong ,it matched the one out of the 91 trooper

A few phone calls later and Michael(washington state) sent me one he had which matched my diameter and tooth count.

There is an old thread 7/8 yrs ago on the wire that documents this.

So I know that in 90/91 model MUA5 Tcases there are two different gear ratios(hince difference in tooth count and diameter)

Just more info

Will you post diameter and tooth count on both your low gears?

Just more info
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Re: T case hybrid build- looking for mid 90's auto t case ge

Postby bradzuzu » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:51 pm

The over all diameter only varies by at the most a 1/4" circumfrence.
The late model output shaft is 49 tooth gear count versus the early at 47...
The late model intermediate shaft is 26 and 37 tooth count.
The early model intermediate shaft is roughly 28 and 39 I believe.
Same thing for the low range gear on the main shaft 34 new and probly 32 on the old.
The biggest difference size wise and tooth count was the front output shaft gear 49 new and guessing the old would probably be 51 or 52... I was unfortunately in a rush to have to finish.


Image
Image

This is the late model shift rail.... The blue pen mark is the location of the other detent on the early manual shift rail. In the second pic it shows the roll pin hole for the main shaft shift fork. The
Hole was offset by a 1/16" towards the tail shaft.

As far as bearings and bushing rides they where all identical... I used my late model front output shaft with the early model gear. I tost the sincros and shift collar dogs on the bench.
I pre checked bearing tolerances and all that was well with in specs ....

Time to adjust the hi/low shifter !!!
91 amigo sas toy front leaf- traded off :(
2000 amigo sas d44 wagonear 4 link
custom built buggy ffor the dirty stuff

My build up page
Four link pics
Intake R&R - port and polish

Sometimes trying is all you can do, but when you succeed , that's something to be proud of...
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Re: T case hybrid build- looking for mid 90's auto t case ge

Postby bradzuzu » Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:33 pm

I am happy to report that the final trick was to pull the hi/low shifter and put it in the press and straiten it just a bit !!!! The shifter sits a bit further forward now

Image
Hi range....

Image

Low range....

It feels alot slower/lower geared.
If you asked me if this big mod job was worth it compared to buying Tera lows 3:01 your talking an extra 40 deg of rotation roughly... It's a toss up !!! With the parts I have, I could do a full conversion to a manual shift, and dump the servo shift... The price was good $75 dollars... The cursing and yelling was free of charge.....:)
91 amigo sas toy front leaf- traded off :(
2000 amigo sas d44 wagonear 4 link
custom built buggy ffor the dirty stuff

My build up page
Four link pics
Intake R&R - port and polish

Sometimes trying is all you can do, but when you succeed , that's something to be proud of...
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Re: T case hybrid build- looking for mid 90's auto t case ge

Postby psguardian » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:11 pm

That is awesome! I do believe you are the first to have done a full transplant of tcase guts from 2nd gen auto to 3rd gen manual. Congrats!

Going from 2.050:1 to 2.660:1 for $75
Or
Going from 2.050:1 to 3.070:1 for $675+s&h

If you've got the $$, go lower... If you're on a budget, go junk yard!

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Re: T case hybrid build- looking for mid 90's auto t case ge

Postby bradzuzu » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:26 pm

Wow that's spendy !!! With the options I still have I guess it's well worth the headache lol ....
Thanks Psguardian !!! For all the input and help !!! I will pm Jerry as well...
Final test I put the front driveline in and locked the hubs and drove it a bit on the wet pavement and not once did it feel like it was going to pop out !!!
91 amigo sas toy front leaf- traded off :(
2000 amigo sas d44 wagonear 4 link
custom built buggy ffor the dirty stuff

My build up page
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Intake R&R - port and polish

Sometimes trying is all you can do, but when you succeed , that's something to be proud of...
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Re: T case hybrid build- 92 auto gears into mua5- Done !!!

Postby bradzuzu » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:17 am

I've already put 150 plus miles on the amigo and all is well !!! Playing around with low range, I can take off in 3rd and it feels like 1rst high lol. It creeps pritty good !! At first I didn't think it made much of an effect, but in 5th gear low range I'm doing 35 - 40 at 2700 rpm I think. It's slow enough for my liking. I would say very comparable to a 3:07:1 ratio. And I'm running 33's with 4:10's...
91 amigo sas toy front leaf- traded off :(
2000 amigo sas d44 wagonear 4 link
custom built buggy ffor the dirty stuff

My build up page
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Intake R&R - port and polish

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Re: T case hybrid build- 92 auto gears into mua5- Done !!!

Postby Jay » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:43 pm

Wow. That's all I can say after reading through your project. You are a talented mechanic.

bradzuzu wrote:I've already put 150 plus miles on the amigo and all is well !!! Playing around with low range, I can take off in 3rd and it feels like 1rst high lol. It creeps pritty good !! At first I didn't think it made much of an effect, but in 5th gear low range I'm doing 35 - 40 at 2700 rpm I think. It's slow enough for my liking. I would say very comparable to a 3:07:1 ratio. And I'm running 33's with 4:10's...
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Re: T case hybrid build- 92 auto gears into mua5- Done !!!

Postby bradzuzu » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:44 pm

Thanks Jay !!! It's was rather a pain in the butt !!! I was almost afraid it wasn't going to work !!!
But thank god the shift rail saved me. I can't say I'd want to do that stuff everyday !!!
I think my hair would turn grey :)....
91 amigo sas toy front leaf- traded off :(
2000 amigo sas d44 wagonear 4 link
custom built buggy ffor the dirty stuff

My build up page
Four link pics
Intake R&R - port and polish

Sometimes trying is all you can do, but when you succeed , that's something to be proud of...
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Re: T case hybrid build- 92 auto gears into mua5- Done !!!

Postby Bansil » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:08 pm

bradzuzu wrote:Thanks Jay !!! It's was rather a pain in the butt !!! I was almost afraid it wasn't going to work !!!
But thank god the shift rail saved me. I can't say I'd want to do that stuff everyday !!!
I think my hair would turn grey :)....

Stay around with isuzus longenuf and it will :mrgreen:
La Tortuga...the bus
http://www.skoolie.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12570
The Turtles' site
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/505863/1998-isuzu-rodeo/
My Amigo build "Lowrider"
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18800&hilit=lowrider


nfpgasmask wrote: I think it looks like a robot penis, but then again, I have a sick mind.

:) Bart
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Re: T case hybrid build- 92 auto gears into mua5- Done !!!

Postby bradzuzu » Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:50 am

Lol !!! Nice !!! I hope not, I gotta help a few more friends out with there projects...
So in continuation of this Bansil ,anything pre 90's is going to be two options of gears then ???
My 91 amigo had the slip yoke output shaft style. I bought a core trans probly mid to early 90's for my fixed tailshaft conversion. When the time came I pulled my back cover off and lucked out the gear count was the same !!! I have no idea what low range ratio my core trany is, or what my old amigo's ratio was ???
91 amigo sas toy front leaf- traded off :(
2000 amigo sas d44 wagonear 4 link
custom built buggy ffor the dirty stuff

My build up page
Four link pics
Intake R&R - port and polish

Sometimes trying is all you can do, but when you succeed , that's something to be proud of...
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Re: T case hybrid build- 92 auto gears into mua5- Done !!!

Postby Bansil » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:41 pm

I don't know about that,at the time...3 maybe 4 years ago when I found my problem,jerry sent me a gear and it was wrong size/tooth count it kinda surprised him also.
I don't know the reason behind it maybe which country tcase was assembled in?mnt terrain verses flat and muddy(for wheel spin) who knows???
My donor gear was out of a 2.8 trooper(that didn't fit)jerry jus had a gear laying around(it didn't fit)the donor which fit was out of a 4cy trooper s maybe has to do with v6 versus 4cyl?
La Tortuga...the bus
http://www.skoolie.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12570
The Turtles' site
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/505863/1998-isuzu-rodeo/
My Amigo build "Lowrider"
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18800&hilit=lowrider


nfpgasmask wrote: I think it looks like a robot penis, but then again, I have a sick mind.

:) Bart
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Re: T case hybrid build- 92 auto gears into mua5- Done !!!

Postby bradzuzu » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:57 pm

I've put this setup to the test up crawlin around on trails, I loved it !!! hardly had to give it any throttle !!! Going down some really rough stuff required putting in the clutch a few times. It's low enough to creep yet moves fast enough to be productive... The shifter slid back into neutral once flying down the road in hi 4 going about 40-45.. I think a stronger detent spring would help that problem. That's my only complaint !!!
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Re: T case hybrid build- 92 auto gears into mua5- Done !!!

Postby psguardian » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:05 pm

That is awesome, i'm glad you were able to get the deeper stock gear set.

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